Smarter Infrastructure Asset Management in the Digital Era

Hi, good afternoon, everyone, and welcome. I'm just gonna give a minute or maybe thirty seconds more before we just start the conversations as people are still dialing in. Good afternoon, all. Yes. Okay. I think we are on now and thanks for all joining joining in. We are going to talk about smart infrastructure asset management in the digital era, as you can hear from see from the title. Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land we are meeting on today, the Terrible and Yaragatayagara people, and pay my respects to their elders past, present, and emerging. Their strong connection to land, knowledge, and community remind us that transformation isn't new. People here have been adapting, learning, and creating change for thousands of years while keeping their traditions alive. And I really connect to that because this is transformation. And when it's done well, it's about creating value without losing what matters most. So I came from Turkish heritage and I started my career with Bug Group, just family owned multi billion dollar international company. When the group began its digital transformation, the annual program budget was sixty million Euro. And it was a bold move for traditional organization and we had everyone involved. What that means is we had SME leads from different countries, we had country managers, finance directors, IT specialists, consultants, the big technology partners like L and T Infotech and Capgemini, you name it. It was a massive and it was massive and it looked very impressive, but it also showed me how hard it's truly aligned people, system and purpose. After two years, I was in the project as chief CTO who had been with the company for forty years with big respect. She lost her job. That was a real lesson for me. And when the webinar topic came up, I just thought this would be a really good topic to talk and share experiences. As a result, I brought my critical friends, David and John to share what we experienced so far. So we've got mixed people here with councils, contractors and government agencies. So before we begin, I will just do a bit of housekeeping here, which is we love your questions and comments. So we will, this is gonna be more like a fireside chat. Three of us will talk through. I'll just moderate the session, asking questions. At the end of the session, we aim around forty, forty five minutes of our chat discussions, and I'll leave the floor to your questions. So please feel free to ask any questions because amongst us, we got around maybe hundred years experience in the room and different countries, different contexts, we might be able to assist you. And if you would like to find out who we are, we got bios in the system that you can click on the icon and you can find out who we are. And if you would like to find out more about our organization, I work for Brightly Siemens. And then David works for Fault Morgan. And John is working for Sarcotaga. You can see all the logos of the companies at the back of our screen. So you can actually look at our companies. And if you would like to have a specific demo about what we do in Brightly Siemens, you can request that demo. So just one thing, we are all in the same room and just we are not avatars. You'll see like humanly reactions. We might look at each other and we might talk, just bear that with us. We decided to be in the same room to get that conversation going. So in terms of I'll just go through the introduction of our team and myself. I am Schein. I worked different countries, in different countries as civil chartered structural engineer. This is my country number seven. I did mainly road asset management operations. And I've joined Brightway Siemens as an SME to develop the transport market responsible for roads, rail, and port. If you have any questions at the back of this discussions or anything, please connect me. So I'll pass it on to David Payne from Fulton Organ. Would you like to just introduce yourself, David? Thank you, Sean. I'm David Payne. I'm the National Asset Manager at Fulton Hogan. I've worked in the transport sector for many decades, particularly in roads. There's plenty of different people managing assets. I don't manage our Fulton Hogan assets. I work with clients on how they manage their assets, so particularly in that growth environment. Another team that looks at technology and how we use technology in the business. And as we go through this, we'll probably use examples of how that's worked. I've also been involved in the broader digital transformation at Fulton Hogan. I'll pass over to John, who will give you a bit of his background. Thanks, David. Thanks, Sean. I was fortunate to start my career with IBM's Federal Systems Division, where I was trained in systems integration and obviously skilled and practiced in that in that discipline. I was fortunate because IBM decided to move a bit of the commercial divisions. And I was fortunate enough to be appointed to lead the effort, first of all, for IBM in Asia Pacific, and then obviously for Saratoga at a later point in time. The transition that we're in now or the period that we're in now is like an innovation in a period that we've never experienced before. And it's been wonderful to be able to see digitization coming to bear because it's made the integration of this type of work with the business side of things and the data side, the people, and technology much, much easier. And it's also provided through some of the tools we've got now, the facilitation to enable that to occur. So I'm very pleased to be here today at the invitation of Schein and here with David from the practical perspective to be able to share my experience and discuss with you and openly talk about some of the experiences that we've had with the digitization. Thank you, John. Before I begin to the discussions, I really would like to find out who is in the room so we can actually tune our conversation. The question is what best describes your professional background? Can you just please vote and I'll give thirty seconds whilst answers are populated. As you're all answering and I can see some of the responses from the chatterbox with the questions part. It's good to see some familiarized face and friends. So what we got is actually a good spread, mainly engineering and technical background, IT and digital as expected. So I think with the group of people we have here is a balance that's what digital transformation needs to work. So I have the next question again. It's just to understand from you guys. Where would you place your organization on digital journey, transformation journey? Where are you at the moment? So again, I'll just keep another thirty seconds here. And then as I said, this is gonna just more fine tune of our conversation to make sure that we have the base level. Okay. When I'm normally above fifty percent, I just stop that. And it's, again, looks like most of us are right kind of in the middle. So it's not just paper based or reactive, but some digitization, But systems don't connect yet or data is shared across the team but insights are limited. So still progress but it looks like there are still more rooms to connect the dots. And, from let's start from here. So government and infrastructure programs, face constant changes, constant restructuring and shifting priorities and short political cycles. So yet the expectation is to deliver transformation, which never slows down. So we often start these programs with great energy and passion, but reality hits and people move on budget resets and focus shifts. So my first question is going to be to John. And John, from your experience that you work with large scale integration for big organizations and with the change programs, what separates organizations that keep their momentum and credibility through disruption from these that stall after every structure or priority changes. Thanks, Shyam. So the difference is purpose. The organisations keep momentum linked their digitisation to real achievable outcomes and business outcomes, things that people can see and feel, and tend to understand why change matters and can measure the impact energy builds instead of fading. Those who store tend to focus on structure technology. The ones that thrive keep the focus on outcomes, lying business data people and technology around a clear purpose that everyone believes in. Thank you. So David, Fulton Morgan is a family owned organization with a strong delivery culture. Where are you in your digital transformation as a company? And how do you balance transformation between the traditional working and you still keep the progress moving? Interesting question, Shana. I suppose John, you and I have talked about this for a number of months and as this is a journey, you know, we've actually moved in that time. I suppose there's two areas to talk about, both the organisation and why John talked about some of the elements that make it success. But actually getting the whole organisation to move at once is pretty challenging. As a business, we've been, we've probably been doing some of the digital transformation as far back as five or six years ago. And then in other areas doing very little or nothing. There's been a whole lot of momentum in our business in the last year or so, to undertake broad scale digital transformation. And that has come through getting, the buying from senior managers to actually want to do this because it's a significant change of business. How do we do it while we're delivering? Well, key is we need to deliver it, but have the structures in place. And part of that is we're bringing extra people into the business who are dedicated to do this. So I work in asset management, and provide technology across different systems, including asset management systems, data analytics, GIS. We've been doing this for a number of years and we've been doing it in, a microcosm of our business, and having having a lot of success, not necessarily always at the start where we've actually laid some of what we need to do. And as the business sees it, and gets a feel of what it is, then they want a bit more and a bit more. So that's part of where we've been, but there's certainly been some big changes. And we know this is a journey. There's so many areas to cover for digital transformation. Thank you. The next question is actually my favorite because I come from contracting background. And when we decided to go to for digital transformation, there was always a button, which is I think every organization wrestles with this one. Who really leads the digital transformation? Is it IT or operations? And underneath that, another big question, do we go for one enterprise system that promises simplicity, but long term delivery or build an ecosystem that specialized tools that actually talks to one another and which is more, I would say fit for purpose from the operational background I'm coming from. So John, question to you with your Mendix experience and probably people may not know what Mendix is, maybe you want just elaborate on that, but with your experience and integration background, how can IT and operations call on the transformation without one side shifting the other one? And also when it comes to a system and is a single system is the enabler, or actually it becomes a bottleneck? So I think there's two parts to that question. And the first one is digitization only works when operations, I. The business and IT act as genuine partners. This is a dual effort. It's not something that one organization can drive, one part of the organization can drive the sponsorship and what we always look for is advocacy. The advocacy has to build through the organization or it's not gonna work. Each need to understand their contribution to a shared business outcome. And I come back and focus on the business outcomes because that's how the playing field is leveled, they need not to compete for control. When both sides co own the result, transformation has momentum. The second part of the question is where single systems enable progress when it connects to specialized tools, and there's a place for specialized systems. Some specialized systems can operate clearly standalone, and we should not walk away from that focus. However, when we're going to bring it together, as in the case of asset management, and I'll use that specifically because there are many components of asset management has to work with to make it operate effectively. We drive out value chains, and we look at systems that support asset management. We've done that many times. And there are about sixteen systems in general organizations that support an asset management, an effective asset management function. For instance, asset management must work with health and safety systems, and they cannot sit apart. That's where the low code application came in. That's where I found the huge advantages that we now have with low code and AI and ML on those low code low code platforms, and specifically Mendix, which I have spent a lot of time working with and implementing. And when that comes in, it's the glue that unifies the workflow, the analytics, and the data in one seamless experience. And I make it very clear that we look at four components when we're bringing these things together. We look at how the business is going to operate, look how the data is going to come together and have integrity, look at how the people's jobs are gonna be enriched, and we're going to increase productivity and make job satisfaction a greater effort within the organization in the middle of the technology that supports it. When those four things come together, we finish up with a very, very cohesive operation and great benefit for the organization. But I stress again, linked to outcomes. And David, you are dealing with multiple asset classes, different clients. You also act as a main contractor, then you have multiple subcontractors that are working with you. So heading to John's, what approach generally works in practice and when those realities collide? Thanks, Sean. So a bit of background about our business at Fort Hogan. We're a civil contractor. But as a business where we're very working diverse locations. And as Sean said, we've got a whole lot of different clients. So we're working for a lot of different clients at the same time, but also subcontracting out work there. As a business over time, we have been empowering local businesses to provide solutions for the meet the customers' needs. And that hasn't this is in the delivery sense. And as time's going on, technology has supported what we're doing. But that's left us in a position where we've probably got a few too many systems that haven't stand us. I suppose seen in other organisations, a number of years ago, I saw a government organisation who was talking about how their digital transformation and they're moving from about, in asset management, about fifty systems to six. And then there's no challenges. It's really easy to say, well, let's just go to a single or a limited number of systems. But there's a transition even if that's going to work. And how do you deal with the legacy systems at the moment? So our business is probably one that we're not going for a single system. We operate a number of systems, in our digital transformation that we're underway with, you know, certainly trying to reduce some of the number of systems where we've got more than one system in the same area looking to find what's the best system to use, and implement that across the business. That's going to take some challenges because people are using current systems and unless you get that advocacy, which is hard to get an organisation of about eleven thousand people, so, with a very delivery focus, so you need to get people on board. So when John talked about how you can actually, bring systems together or more particularly, suppose we're talking about how we can bring data or other types of information together, that's where the power will be. And when we start to do that, we will actually get some huge benefits in what we're doing with data. I suppose we see it so much in life that the biggest companies in the world these days are the ones who own and utilise data. So you know, a business that's very delivery focused. How do we support that, around data and how's that digital transformation, making the business better? I suppose one of the key changes for us, and John talked about being business led. Certainly I've been involved in this and then some people say, this is just an IT project and there's got a little chance of success if we're leading up to a support function to lead the business. And so there's been people brought in to lead digital transformation in the business and then considerations of how the interaction between the technology lead in RT and the business will interact so that we're actually getting the outcomes that the business is looking for. Thank you. I just want to open the floor for the next, poll, which is actually what is holding you back. Because we understood that you are midway through in your digital transformation. And I just wanna understand from the audience that what is the biggest barrier for you in your organization that digital transformation is still ongoing? So you have five options. I'll let thirty seconds. And the legacy systems and data silos is the winner. And the next one is equal which is procurement and budget limitations and organizational culture and resistance. Again, not a surprise. It's generally data and culture is always the top on the list I've seen in anytime I have this dialogue. So which actually leads nicely to the next question. And I just want to move from tools to outcomes, which is more about the avoiding digital monsters. So let's be honest, digitizing a form or building a dashboard isn't a transformation and it's just digitization. And we've all seen programs that start with the best intentions, but we end up creating digital monsters that you need to feed that monsters with the data, with people, resources. So it's very complex, it's disconnected, it looks impressive and maybe it works for the corporate and the finance that we have on systems or tools. But what does it actually deliver on the ground? What is the impact? So I just want to ask John that how do you help organization stop that cycle? So to keep technology purposeful, practical, but outcome driven rather than just another compliance activities. So you're absolutely right. Digitization, digitizing a form, building a dashboard isn't transformation, it's activity. And I think that's a really good message for people we're working with at the moment, that it becomes an activity. And I'd say that real transformation comes when every digital effort is tied to clear business outcomes. David talked about his area in Fulton Hogan and how that's very much how he's driving and has driven his move through digitization and moving people so that they understand what he is doing and his intent. It has to be something that's measurable and meaningful. The first question I'd like to ask is what problem are we solving, and how will we know when we've when it's better and when we've got it? There are two fundamentals that should always keep in mind when you're doing these sorts of things that comes back to very basic stuff. The key in keeping technology purposeful and connected is really important. The momentum drifts if the outcomes aren't focused on and driven. You end up with those digital, as I think, girls are monsters, and I think we would call them digital. Obviously, failures and what we've been forth for me. They may look impressive, but actually change nothing. That's where platforms like the low code and specifically what I've used in Mendix make a difference. They connect the business side of things with people and data. And, obviously, the systems play a really important part as you link the systems together so you can integrate to a total total deliverable from a business perspective. They get talked about, he's not looking for a single system. And it's absolutely right. I've put in multiple ARPs, very large ones, and found that the ARPs simply create havoc within the organizations as they put them through. Large ARPs across multiple regions, Europe, the Americas, and Asia Pacific. And as those things went in, they created huge problems for the field and for the people that were actually delivering the business in a in a longer period. So coming back to understanding the purpose of what we're doing and understanding how we can integrate the way in which people actually operate within the field is a really, really important, a really important factor as to how we take these things forward. And the tools that we do it are really important to select and to be able to use. Yep. And David, you run different projects across different states and different contracts in terms of the types with performance based contract and term maintenance contracts and have you. They all have their own systems because departments have specific systems, but also they have different standards. So how do you ensure that your digital or your system solutions remains a tool for performance, which is improving safety, reliability, and services rather than becoming an admin layer that you just report to your organization or to customers. So it's a challenge. It's a big challenge. Our business works both across Australia and New Zealand. In New Zealand, there's a lot more standardization, in how different aspects of delivery are done. fairly standard contracts. In Australia it's quite different. So we need to be flexible. As you Sean and John were talking about at the broad scale, we've had some success because it's a starting this journey to actually step in to do the whole organisation is a real challenge. So I suppose I want to share an example which is around performance, which we did in a single contract and how it made a difference. And it was very business focused. So we had a very complex performance regime in one of the contracts we deliver. And what we what we did were determined to do. And this had about fourteen annual performance measures recorded anywhere between monthly and annually. And within one of those we had another seventy performance measures. So how are we getting away from actually spending one, someone spending a lot of time actually doing this at the end of every month? And how do we move from managing performance or move to managing performance, sorry, from just recording performance? So we connected a number of systems together so that we could actually present this data that we decided to do it every day. And when we started this contract, ran the meetings at the start to get people on board, but we're really looking at how they were using the outcomes to manage their work to get the best performance. We were measured on our performance. We have the ability during each month and during the year to make a difference. So we did that. Now I've worked in that contract for a couple of years. It's been going for about three years since. I was really pleasantly surprised when I was out doing some other work recently that they've got the dashboard reporting up and again, once one of them read the meeting. So it shows some of John's elements of advocacy, the ownership of that. Going back a bit more to your question where we do things in long areas. We do need to do a lot of customization. But underpinning that we're running a business internally that's pretty similar. So how are we bringing a common way of safety? Part of our business, we're a manufacturing business. So how do we run our manufacturing standard way? So we can bring efficiencies. So it is it's about getting people on board, having processes, and then how we bring data together so we can actually run our business with much more performance and outcome focus. We're on a journey as I said earlier. Some of that we're doing really well and other areas we're continuing to work out how to do that in better ways. I just want to move the discussion to people, culture and capability from here. And it's about who leads the change, is it the people or the tools? So because I started road AI or digital inspection ten years ago, in UK and I remember every single road inspectors I had, they hated the technology. They sabotaged actually the products being working. They had zillions of reasons. So that always made me wonder about how do you actually achieve the transformation? This is actually transforming people the way that they work. And we actually had a lot of discussions between John, myself and David. So what digital actually means, digitizing, digitalizing and everything else. So what transformation really looks like. And that says a lot. If we are discussing what that means in the leadership and I think the people are on the ground, they might have a whole heap of definitions for what is digital, what is transformation. So John, in your experience, how do you make digital strategy real and relatable to people on the ground and people in the office so they're not afraid of the change, but they are not actually afraid means scared of losing their jobs as well. This is the biggest blockage I hear from people. But something also people can understand and they trust and they take ownership because you mentioned purpose a lot. So how do you actually get the people on the ground and people to understand the purpose, understand the ownership, and they trust what people are building? There's so many ways that I can answer this question. I have some of the audience come back with questions to us in terms of particularly this point. It's really important. And if our leaders can't clearly define what digital means, then people on the ground will fill in the gaps themselves with uncertainty. And that's where things really do lose their focus. For me, it starts with making digital human. Transformation has to connect to people and their day to day work. What gets easier, faster, or safer because of it? When people can see the why and the what is for me, they start to trust trusted and take ownership and come back to the trust question because we have stopped talking about efficiency in a lot of the work we do and start to talk about productivity. If I look at, say, a construction site, we have people on the construction site where the supervisors probably you know, there's a supervisor for every ten to fifteen people, somewhere around that sort of area. A lot of those people spend their time in administration. Digitizing means we shift those people from administrative work to actually supervising. And we reduce the digitize we reduce the paperwork, we reduce the administrative work that these people have to do, so that they can focus more on obviously supervising. It's the same with operators. You know, operators spend time when they operate machinery in this world of ours, they have to sign the machinery off every morning. So it's got to be signed off for what work it's gonna do. It's gonna be signed off for what loads it's gonna take, and the operator has to sign that off and has to get it approved. That cycle, if it's paper based, is a really significant period of time. We can make that more efficient so the operator can actually operate. And so the thing that I'll say to you is building the capability is really important, and making it meaningful for the pig on the ground is really important. And stop thinking about things in terms of losing jobs, and start to talk about things in terms of productivity, enhancing jobs, enhancing people's positions with the work they've done, the work they're doing is really important in driving that advocacy that David has spoken about. The second part is building capability, not dependency. You don't hand people at all. You equip them with confidence and context. That's why culture takes over. That's where culture takes over. And that's when transformation sticks. Technology doesn't lead change, people do. Our job is to make a path clear and meaningful enough for them to want to walk the path. Thank you, John. David, Fulton is a family owned company with deep operational roots and the hands on workforce. I was a bit surprised to see average years of people in the company is thirty plus. And so how do you see your transformation journey in terms of the people perspective? Perspective? How do you build belief and confidence? Because who always relied on their experience, their instincts rather than the systems that we just had a discussion today, your team is still working on some of the stuff on paper. So can you elaborate on this? I've talked about how decentralized our businesses. I've worked in a number of organisations at this point more than any, there's a lot of long standing employers. We have people who have worked in the company over forty years. Actually, at the end of this week, I'm up to ten years and for many people in our organisation, I'm still one of the fairly new stars. So there's a lot of entrenched behaviours, understanding. And again, we're probably working in an industry where there's plenty of times people say, oh, well they know what they do, so why shouldn't we change? I suppose John, you know, I talk a lot about why we're doing digital transformation and some of work we're doing around efficiency. But I think John's hit on something around productivity because many people are sick of hearing about efficiency and productivity. And it's if you follow what's happening in economics in Australia, we had much productivity growth in decades? Very little. So should people be worried about losing their jobs as John talked about? I don't think so. We have limited, highly skilled people. And across our business, it doesn't matter what area we're looking at, whether it's someone, working the crews laying ash fell or someone say in our IT area, it's hard to get good people. But our digital transformation and Shai, we're talking a little bit about definitions in our business. We're sort of trying to talk about a digital transformation in a pathway. And the first step is digitization. And John was talking about that. So how do we get off using paper? Or one of my favorites, get off spreadsheets, which is some form of digitization but not necessarily a good one. But sometimes there, we digitize a form and then we PDF it and store it. So it's the first step, but it's not, you know, how do we connect this together Is really important. But back on the people side, you know, how do we do this? We've seen to get a lot of success, once we get people on board, once they can see some of the benefits, I'm sure some are then less fearful about how they might, their job will change or whether they're going to lose their role. But the other part of the people has had enough skilled people in the business. You can't necessarily ask someone who was laying ashcot one day to develop forms the next day. So how as a business do we make sure that we can implement and entrench this in our business and build the culture. And that's all throughout the organisation. Without the leadership at high levels, it's going be very good. But I've talked about how we've done certainly some of this, within areas of business where there was not organisational support. But that's some of the areas I think, you know, really in people. But we're a transitional point. You know, as I talk about people often working a long time in our business. When we bring new people in the business, they're expecting technology and and doesn't matter in what roles and, part of what I do is look at what we're doing in digital engineering across our business, working with other parts of our business. And when we're looking at brand programs, people expecting that the digital is part of what their role is and that the attractiveness of where they're actually working once they leave university is really key to that. So as a business, if you're not doing that, then it's going to be hard to attract maybe the people you want to lead this transformation or certainly be supporters and advocates of it. Thank you. I just wanna ask the final question. Yes. Sure. You know, what David's saying is really important. We don't have enough people and enough skill in this country, and we're going to run into that problem more and more all the time. And particularly here in Brisbane, we've got the Olympics going. And there's huge plans to build accommodation, all sorts of things in this country, in this state, and we don't have the people to do And so enhancing the jobs that people have got, making them increasing the productivity is really, really important for us to be able to do what we've gotta do. Everybody on this call knows the initiatives that our government taking to build housing. It's a major problem. We don't actually have the people to choose the housing plans that we put together without making some major changes from the way in which we're currently doing business. And it's not gonna put people out of work. It's gonna enhance their jobs. And I think when we're talking about councils, we're talking about work that was in the councils, it's really important to look at the productivity gain. To look at how we don't spend money just replacing systems because the ones you've got to do in pinpoint jobs is how do you bring them together, as David said. So you can see the data. You can see the information. You can see the productivity. You can see the workflow, you can see how you're operating to improve it for the people on the ground. I think that's really, really critical. So that also leads to future readiness because we talk about resilience and connected systems. And what we're saying is the biggest issue is actually the resources. So we need to enable resources. So I think I'm gonna skip the last question because we got fifteen minutes and I'll just wanna leave the floor. So you did ask a question as to what leaders can do in the future. Yes, maybe we can just, one one words because I wanna get the questions from the audience. So I'll just put certainly, Chime challenged me with lots of questions, and I think it was really important because I do think leaders are going to think in terms of ecosystems, not in terms of silos in the future. And that's going to make a difference more or because it's insight and it's trust. Connectivity through resilience through data is going to make the difference. I'm gonna leave you with a thought that adaptability comes from insight, trust from connection, and resilience from data. So Shyanne, over to you because we do need to go to the floor. I would really like to leave some Yes, I think just one point I want to add there. Leadership is always hard to get being a leader is hard on this type of transformation journey because you have day to day job and you have to manage it. So as a result, maybe this is not your comfort area or key skill set that you, but you still have to sign the check and you still have to explain this and you still need to make it work. That was my very first example of chief technical officer losing her job after a big name and big credit because business thought she would be the one who could get this across, which didn't work. And she probably left very bad and miserable because that wasn't the end that she was envisaging. That's a really hard job for leaders, but at the same time, when you have tens of people working for the project, they have expectation. They want purpose. They want clear direction. They it's so much. And I think it's really important to just to see how do we actually get this purposefully and meaningful and connected. So I feel for both, but that's why I think it's really important to be on the journey and deliver the outcome because being digital is not an option anymore. Considering how much time we spend on our phones and on digital platforms and in teams, even we are doing a fireside chat, but we still have to do digital platforms. We have to use the products. So that actually tells us a big story of where the future will take us. So from this, I got a couple of questions that I just would like to ask. The first question was from Leanne. And the question is if there are two systems within an asset register in each one high level and one completed, have you had any suggestion on how to keep them synchronized? Probably a good question for me. Yes. This is not an untypical situation that we find ourselves in. Being a service provider and working for clients, so quite often they're running a system and we're running the system. And mostly we are not connected, which, having worked as a client on the client side as well is fairly concerning. I suppose the ability and we've all talked about how you exchange data, transfer data. I remember a number of years ago, someone said you just use an API and talk to people about exactly how that worked. But actually getting that connection between the systems and it's usually through an API is where we really need to be. And I suppose I'll take one step further and you were talking about, you asked me a question, about asset data. We're finding the more we connect, people want to connect all sorts of data. So Sean talked about performance. Do we move beyond, say where we've got typically got systems which are asset performance, but at the same time, we've got performance measures around safety and other areas. So how do we bring that all together? And that's through the connection of that data to bring together. And that's where we get a whole lot more power and a whole lot more insight so that we might start to understand that there might be a performance on that service that is not doing so well, but we might find that at the same time there's something else happening in another area which might be around. Maybe what can I do with the questions? Because there are so many beautiful questions coming and I'm really passionate about giving feedback to individuals. So maybe we can just touch upon the questions briefly and then we know who asked the question and speakers can go back to the person in detail. Just we give the flavor. Just one point I noted, Lianne, because my background is mainly engineering and asset management, which is more from the operational aspects. But when I have come across with asset valuation and financial team, this is another area that I noticed they have two different asset register. One is asset register from the asset management system and asset register from the financial, then they never tie up. And then even though, you know, one source of truth, which is your asset register, asset management system, finance sometimes struggles to use that because there is discrepancies, there is inconsistencies. And then you are actually reporting that to treasurer, which could cause a lot of questions in terms of audits and compliance. So that's where actually the dreadful acts can come in. So that's probably an area that business really needs to think. How long you can carry on this way of reporting? When are you going to actually stop and reflect what is on the ground and move from that? That could be something that we really need to think. The second question I'll just take is how to convince ICT to not to go monolith system and go for best of breed or is it monolith solution is a better way to go? This is like one single giant system versus multiple systems. So this might be a question to you, John. You because as you worked in one of the biggest company for most of your life? Yeah. I've worked for a number of companies, and I've actually put in, I don't know, five SAP systems across different jurisdictions across the world. And I found extreme difficulty in putting single systems like SAP with the pain caused on the ground. So I think you've got to come back to business outcome and what you're looking to achieve. You need to know what you want out of the system because a single solution may be what you need for a business unit and not putting multiple solutions across across multiple units. You may want to standardize, or you may want to standardize through the low code platforms and the AI and the ML that's now available to us. It's a paradigm. We can now bring these systems together from a much more practical perspective, and it's real, to actually allow business units to operate in the way in which they need to for their customers, for the fields that they're in, and then transition that so we can get a common view across the organization as to what our efficiencies are and how we can drive better outcomes for the business. So John's question there is how do you convince ICT? So your point is there are low cost platform available, there are technology available, so you can still carry on with your fit for purpose, best of breed individual products. All you do is you glue them, but in order to convince ICT because they don't want to deal with multiple systems, they don't want to deal with multiple cyber security rules and bridge and everything else. So you're saying there is a way to convince them that this is this could work and they can still achieve operational outcomes. Comes back to business outcomes. And if you drive it back to that, that will actually push the engine and push the ICT side of the business to look at what specific pinpoint systems are being used and whether they're viable or not. There is obviously need for rationalization in organizations when there are many, many systems driving the organization. But quite seriously, it's working out and spending our time to look at getting the right answer for an organization. And it's probably putting those brain cells together to look at solving the business problem, which is the critical point. And I'll come back to it again. It's the outcomes, the business outcomes, and then putting our heads around the best way to do it. It will be the least expensive way to do it. There is another question, Zaktula, sorry. I suppose I was gonna ask Where we talked about who leads digital transformation. If it's seen in business that it's the technology and ICT are leading that, then it's going to be really hard without support of people, you know, from the person leading the organisation to say, now this is a business, business led initiative. And, you know, how to convince people to be flexible, you know, I suppose at the bottom line, who had some of the, decision making on this becomes really important. And if it is the arson term in decision making, it can have to be pretty convincing to, put something else up and probably a whole lot of technical knowledge to support that. So not necessarily the easiest thing to do. There is a good question here, which is how do you build back trust when you're on the journey, but which you haven't been successful so far. So It's probably the hardest question here. It's Andrew who's asking the question. I would say. One with all experience. Yes. Maybe I maybe I'm gonna start off with you know, I suppose the hardest part is when someone's got the bad taste of not having success or phobia, how do you deal with that? And the other part would be, you know, these are if you've had a bad experience, but it's a system use across a lot of the organisation, then it's going to be difficult, where individuals don't get so much say in what can happen. And can pretty, when there's a lot of people, if you're not doing it, probably gets overlooked. Where I've had some success probably in more localised solutions and outcomes is actually spending time with people, understanding what they're doing so that they are being heard, but they're seeing that what they're going to get is not just something that I'm delivering out of the box, it actually meets what they need. But as I said, it's not not necessary. You can't go around to everybody in the business in large organisations that we all work in and expect everybody's going get the same. Someone can hold your hand to listen to the reviews. It's gonna be challenging at times. But again, it's the people, it's the culture. It is. But there is no disrespect to anyone because I come from construction background. I was actually operational director when I moved to Siemens Brightly, on the IT side. What I find very challenging for me is the language is very different. The way of thinking is different. And I feel like I'm explaining the project requirement in a way that I feel is operationally what I want. But when we go to the design and put that, it's very different. And I'm missing a lot of the requests that I made hasn't been materialized. So it's really under, we probably need kind of a translator between the operational team and the finance team and the IT team. And even though we work in the same organization, same culture, same purpose, the statement can be different. The understanding can be different. Reflection can be different. That's why I think it's absolutely critical to be on the same page for the same goal. Because I never seen anyone comes to work to say, I'm gonna screw up my company today. Everybody comes to do a good job. As a result, it's more about how do we make sure that we are on the same journey, but I've also noted one of the question was answering like, we got limited budget, we got, bureaucracy and how do you actually make, this is the word, use less, deliver more or value for more. So I think these are all relevant and important to deliver value. So we've got two more questions and I'll just look at because budgets are really important. Yes. And a lot of organizations are very heavily budget driven. Absolutely. And let's say take care of that because retain your legacy and work out how to keep it because there's an investment in the legacy. And that can be retained if we're building and putting these AI engines over the top of them today. So look at how that can be done and the cost of that associated with changing the base infrastructure because I think it can remain. Absolutely. So we've got two more questions or three, but what I will do is the first one is about Brightly software can be integrated with other systems. So Joseph, I'll come back to you on that one. I acknowledge it. Yes, we have a different approach now with low code and what can we do? Another question is about skill shortages across infrastructure. That's Jane's questions. We will come back to that about the woman participation in construction. Challenge. Doctor It's a business we're trying to make construction more attractive to women. And we're doing that at all sorts of different levels from engaging in schools around where it's not particularly around our company, and getting more girls at school interested in STEM. But there's still, there's been progress in the construction industry, but there's still a way to go to make it attractive. And part of making it more attractive for women is making it more attractive for families. And I'll just leave it on that. But also businesses are really trying with putting target in the recruitment to make workplace more attractive, more equal, but we have a long journey to go. One question from Connie, can AI help resolving discrepancies between asset registers? Connie, since I'm in Siemens with technologies and digitals, are whole heaps of idea how AI can help. This is the key question. How can AI help on asset register, identifying defects, telling someone that they've done the wrong maintenance job? There are a whole heap of questions. We are on the journey. We are looking at it and there is whole heap of roadmaps. And I feel like AI is going to take a lot of thought process and we really need to still think about how we put the engineering knowledge and thinking into the system. I think that's where the system will have a challenge. And again, if you have any questions, we are one minute over and yes, good to see you Clinton and thank you. I hope you find the session useful. And if you have any questions to me, John or David, we are available all on LinkedIn and we are also available via you can all connect us. You can ask any questions, we are available, be around. And especially if you are using Brightly software toolkits or if you are actually using if you Fulton Organ is your contractor, feel free to have a discussions that we could be your champions. We have so much going on at the moment in Brightly space with Siemens in terms of digital, in terms of smart, in terms of AI. I think world is your oyster at the moment I would say. It's just we really need to start small and see what that it means, what means for you and it translate into business. And then we can take it from there. And thank you. I just want to add Mendix is also a Siemens. Yes, exactly. When we talked about Mendix is Siemens platform. It's the low code glue that we talk about. And that's in my view very important to add to the different products we've got like asset management. It's very, very valuable to help. And very happy to talk to anybody in terms of how we actually apply these local platforms in real situations. And I know David is really interested in looking at how that can be done as well, and it is extremely valuable. I think it doesn't matter if it's Mendix, if it's other platforms, if you're really going through the transformation and the journey that gluing multiple systems. I really encourage all of you to understand what this means. Not one single system, but multiple system can still deliver value. So feel free to connect us, talk to us if you wanna find out what this total product we are talking about. And I feel like in five years, I think everybody will do it this way. It's there's no brainer. That's my final summary. So for me, the takeaway is clear. I think from this is just without direction, without purpose, without people behind transformation is not going to last and it's going to fail. And transformation is not about the tools, but it's more about the people and the leadership and the persistence. And progress needs to come with the system doesn't gonna come with tools alone, but it needs to be aligned with the culture, with the purpose. So thank you very much all pleasure talking to you and maybe we catch up next time. Cheers. Thank you everyone. Thanks everyone.